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| Riots in Katunitsa |
It's been a sad week as well. Sad for the family of Angel Petrov, the 19 year old boy who was intentionally dragged to his death by a minibus driven by criminals associated with Kiro Raskov. And sad for the family of the 16 yr old boy who tragically died of a heart attack as a result of the ensuing protests. Sad for hundreds of thousands of Roma who were subject to outpourings of hate speech and violence throughout the week. Sad for the thousands of, mostly young, Bulgarians who were poisoned by this hatred and took to the streets to protest and march on Roma ghettoes.
There were very few voices of reason this week. The Prime Minister and President stood together against the ethnic protests. Relationships between the two are not good so this was an important event. But perhaps the most compassionate voice came from an unlikely source, the father of Angel Petrov, who painfully spoke of his grief but still called for calm.
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| Riot Police |
The so-called free media helped to fuel the fires of hatred with the some of the most irresponsible coverage I have ever witnessed. This is from a Novinite.com editorial earlier this week:
"Tsar Kiro comes from the typical derelict, garbage-strewn streets of Bulgarian Roma ghettos, which are home to most of the country's 375,000 Roma - although unofficial data estimates their true numbers come closer to 750,000, out of a population of 7.8 million. Here he lived together with skinny men rooting through piles of rubbish alongside pigs and fat women in flowing skirts cradling babies."
Novinite.com is a respected news source. It is the largest provider of English language Bulgarian news in Bulgaria and the world. It is quoted widely internationally and this is type of vitriol it spewed out this week. Much of the press coverage was the same.
As the week progressed the apologists crawled out from under their rocks. These weren't ethnic protests, they said. These were protests against organised crime and government inaction (Ironically, this government has tried to do more than any other in recent times).
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| Protests in Sofia |
The truth is that this week ethnic cleansing, racist mobs took to the streets of Bulgaria. Fueled by the many, many injustices in this country they turned their hatred towards the most vulnerable and against those who are least able to defend themselves. Just as Facebook became a vehicle for change in the Middle East it became the life support system of racism as more than 70,000 of its Bulgarian members used it to organise nightly protests.
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| Proud Roma children |
Are you aware that the crime rate among Gypsies is much higher than among the general population (in fact, they commit the majority of thefts, burglaries and assaults)? How can you under these circumstances accuse so many people of racism, if they have a justifiable, if unfair reason to be angry with Bulgaria's gypsies?
ReplyDeleteThe protests have been beset by extremists, but it's notable that they are first in Bulgaria. Isn't that more commendable than the fact that Gypsies in reaction to riots caused by one of their own? Or are minorities to be held to a different standard?
And since when is telling truth spewing vitriol? Have you seen a Gypsy quarter up close?
And it's really classy to compare those who disagree with you to snakes. Yes, that's a cast iron argument.
A blogger without a blog. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteNo one has statistics on "Roma crime" here. Firstly these is no census figure for the number of Roma in the country. It is estimated to be anywhere between 370,000 and 800,000 Roma in Bulgaria so how can anyone say what the level of Roma initiated crime is? Where are the statistics? Produce them.
I accept it is possible that crime among the Roma is probably disproportionately higher. It's a socio-economic reality nothing to do with ethnicity. Unfortunately, more poor people resort to crime than others. Although in Bulgaria we should be careful. One measure of crime is the number of reported crimes. You could look at it a different way. What about the nature of the crime. Bulgaria is beset by major criminals. They are not of Roma extraction. The State Prosecutor said so this week. So if crime is driving the hapless "ethnic Bulgarians" onto the streets why aren't they marching on ethnic Bulgarians. Strange that. Don't you think?
By the way, I don't think you can have a unfair and justifiable reason to be angry and take to the streets. I have trouble making fitting two concepts together.
Your second point is incomprensible. I don't know what you mean. It is easy to dismiss the events of last week as the work of a minority of extremists. It's nonsense of course. Let me be very clear. There is a deep seated and widely held hatred of the Roma here. Eighty thousand young Bulgarians signed a Facebook hate page. Thousands marched in Plovdiv. With some notable exceptions the press coverage has bordered on racism. If the language used in the media here was used in Western Europe, editors and journalists would be charged for incitement to hatred. There is no doubt about that. One balanced journalist from bTV has been the subject of a virulent, well organised hate campaign on Facebook so much so that her account has been deleted. Not the work of a few extremists.
Your own interpretation of events is staggering. Riots were caused "by one of their own". You either know nothing about the situation here are you are deliberately seeking to mislead. The people responsible for the riots are the thousands who marched to Katunitsa, the football hooligans and bikers who joined them and the police who stood by and did nothing. But according to you, it was the Roma's fault. Amazing.
I have seen a Roma quarter up close. It reminded me of the ghettoes I once saw in Africa. Yet these are in Europe. It is shameful stain on, not only Bulgaria, but also the whole of Europe. Remember there are close to 10,000,000 Roma living like this. contd....
According to Wikipedia, racism is the belief that there are inherent differences in people's traits and capacities that are entirely due to their race, however defined, and that, as a consequence, racial discrimination (i.e. different treatment of those people, both socially and legally) is justified.
ReplyDeleteYou (and most Bulgarians) believe that the Roma are inherently lazy, inclined towards begging, feckless and natural criminals. By definition these views are racist. I think so. Amnesty International thinks so and so do a host of reputable NGO's.
The great pity is, that ultimately racism is as damaging to the opressor than it is the the oppressed. It has a dehumanising effect on everyone. And we saw that this week. As the Economist pointed out, there is a lot of anger in Bulgaria. Anger is a wasted and debilitating emotion. Better to target that emotion where it is needed. At the crime bosses, at the judiciary, at senior corrupt officials and at ineffective politicians.
The people of Bulgaria deserve better than this. They have been let down by a failed political/judicial system for over 20 years. Many struggle to make a living and many thousands have left, in disgust. Bulgaria is the poorest country in the EU and, I think, in the Balkans. That is the legacy of 22 years of freedom. That is the reason for the anger and hurt. Not the Roma. In Greece, in Wall Street the citizenry have taken to the streets to direct their anger where it should be. Why not Bulgaria?
The claim that Gypsies commit most of the thefts, burglaries and assaults is from Deutsche Welle, a source that can hardly be accused of Bulgarian nationalism: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15424978,00.html.
ReplyDeleteIt's of course understandable if one steals to feed one's family, but assault, rape and murder? Gypsies commit these crimes out of proportion as well.
The marchers are marching against both Gypsy crime and organized crime, which were combined in this case. Of course it doesn't excuse attacks on Gypsies and it's stupid to ignore the real source for the problem. And your argument that this isn't against organized crime doesn't make sense, because there have been no protests against Gypsies like that before either.
About the motivation of the protesters, I mean that it's justifiable on grounds of anger with crime committed by Gypsies, but it's unfair to blame the Gypsies as a whole. I think the difference is obvious.
Many of the protests were indeed peaceful. That they were hijacked by extremists and ultranationalists is regrettable and I'm dismissing anything, but it's not correct to dismiss the other protests as well.
Your definition of racism seems to be awfully broad. Calling unpleasant truths racist will not make them go away. About Benatova, she seemed more concerned with the burning property of a mafia boss, than the murder committed by his henchmen. Of course this will cause an angry reaction.
There would of course be no riots if the original murder didn't happen. I would think this is obvious.
So you've seen a Gypsy quarter and you know how terrible it looks, so why exactly are you accusing Novinite of "spewing vitriol"? Is this some personal issue you have with that news agency?
Where did I say that Gypsies are inherently anything? Your definition does not seem to follow the one you cited here. For you, racism seems to include any criticism against a non-white minority. Not an attitude that can work in Bulgaria, believe me. Bulgarians are not angry against Gypsies because of what they are but because of what many of them do. And yes, it's racism to blame all of them for that, but it's not an attitude that's come from nowhere.
And here's another source that can hardly be accused of being prejudiced against Gypsies.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ivokoychev.org/?p=589.
I love this blog!! Finally someone putting coherent if not eloquent voice to the injustice and hypocrisy of double standard and apathy I see around me every day in Bulgaria! Why put up with the ethnic Bulgarian crime bosses root out their evil hold unchain yourselves from the yoke of gangster corporatist politics where venal interests are the accepted norm and equality opportunity justice and a chance for all Bulgarians are seen as nothing but a mote in the eye of vested interest to be cast out and scorned! Bulgarians need to stand up unite value themselves and direct this rage against the shady apparatus that holds them in mental and emotional slavery. Have courage stand up dont be downtrodden and don't pick on the downtrodden!
ReplyDeleteI sometimes wonder am I in the same oxygen breathing world as everyone else in Bulgaria. First, thanks for the data. Second, did you look at it?
ReplyDeleteNo, I'll start again. Admittedly my Bulgarian is a little ropey (I'll ask some friends to go through this with me) but In your opening salvo you associate Roma with very serious crimes of assault, rape and murder and there is no data to support this, that I can see. In fact, the data show that "ethnic Bulgarians" have a higher propensity for assault crimes. In my book that's called prejudice.
What the data does show is that from 2000-2004 "ethnic Bulgarians" committed 81% of crime and were more likely to commit serious crimes than the Roma who committed 19% of overall crime. "Roma crime" was more likely to be crime against property, petty theft etc. This is your data, not mine. It says that Bulgarians commit more crime by a factor of 4 to 1. But we are not finished yet. We need to look at the demographics.
And as the author says "since the perpetrators of 70% of all crimes are in the age range between 15 and 30 years (regardless of ethnicity), and Roma make up 15% of this age group, the widespread perception that many Roma are engaged in criminal activity is in fact, greatly exaggerated. According to these data the Roma are only 18.9 percent of suspects, which is slightly above the expected values for the group". So the reason for the slight increase in Roma crime is not ethnicity, it's mainly demographic! Roma have a higher proportion of young people and young people are more likely to commit crime. But wait. That's not the end of the story. There's more!!
A key issue here is to ascertain how many Roma there are in the country in the first place. And guess what? You don't know! The figure could be 370,000 or more likely 550,000 or it could be 800,000. How an earth can you work out statistics if you don't know how many Roma there are in the first place. Obviously the bigger the number of Roma, the more crime they will commit. Its maths! contd.
But never mind. For the purpose of this discussion I'll accept that the Roma commit about 18.9% of crime which is marginally above what you might expect. And Roma crime is more likely to be against property and petty theft. "Ethnic Bulgarians" commit by far the greatest amount of crime and they are likely to commit more serious offences than Roma. I'm not going to even mention police corruption here and the propensity for suspects (I mean "ethnic Bulgarians) to "facilitate" their discharge from criminal charges.
ReplyDeleteSo tell me then. Why is there this perception that the Roma community is "the incubator of crime in Bulgaria" when it just isn't true? And why do Bulgarians believe it to be true? Is it because Bulgarians have an a priori, inherent bias that the Roma are inherently criminal. There is not other explanation.
On Novinite.com's coverage which, thankfully, has moderated somewhat recently. In one article Roma are referred to as "skinny men rooting through piles of rubbish alongside pigs and fat women in flowing skirts cradling babies". The language used is highly pejorative and in the context at the time was inflammatory. I can only say that in my country the author would be charged with incitement to hatred. While everyone was keen to insist that recent events had nothing to do with ethnicity almost every article written constantly referred to the Roma. Let's imagine, for example, that an African American called John Smith was charged with a crime in the US and that the media constantly referred to him as "The Black John Smith". There would be uproar and rightly so. Another example. At one stage, early in the protests when emotions were high, Novinite.com published a piece suggesting that Roma were armed with guns. Their source? The protestors. Skinheads, football hooligans and bikers! In my view, with some notable exceptions, the media failed the test of any reasonable journalistic standard. The media here are as prejudiced against the Roma as the general population.
By the way, Deutsche Welle is quoting 1998 data. You can't be serious?
Insidebulagaria, I invite you to become Sofia Notes editor-in-chief, Chief Crime Correspondent and Political and Society Correspondent! I just want to do the restaurant reviews in future. There's no pay and you get plenty of abuse. As an inducement (bribe?) you can also be our Washington Correspondent but you'll have to find your own way there. I can have a contract with you tomorrow and I'll forward username and password immediately after.
ReplyDeleteYou said you read the article, yet you failed to see this: "Статистиката на МВР за убийствата, при които няма незаявени престъпления и разкриваемостта е около 80%, сочи, че делът на извършилите убийство лица от ромски произход през 1993 г. е бил 35,83 на 100 000 души (ако се приеме, че ромското население е 500 000 души), докато за българите той е бил 5,47 на 100 000 души."
ReplyDeleteThis means that even if we assume that the Gypsies are 800,000, their murder rate is four times the Bulgarian one. Not something that can be waved away by the higher youth population, as they are estimated to be about 15% of the 15-30 range, so if this was adjusted they would still commit murder at a rate of 3,5 times of the Bulgarian murder rate.
Also, it's very convenient to cite figures between 2004 and 2004, when according to the author the collection of information about ethnicity declined after 1998: "След 1998 г. делът на регистрираните в полицията заподозрени роми постепенно спада, което може да се сметне за резултат на настъпилата в страната политическа и икономическа стабилизация, но в действителност причините вероятно са различни. При по-детайлен анализ този спад може да се отдаде на новите статистически методи, въведен в работата на МВР между 1997 и 1998 г. и същевременно намаляващия брой случаи, в които се регистрира етническия произход на заподозряното лице." Between 1990 and 1998, the rate varied between 20 and 34 percent. The author himself says that: "Дори като се вземат предвид промените в статистическия метод на полицията през 1997 г. и твърде спорадичното регистриране на етническата принадлежност на заподозрените, от наличните данни може да се заключи, че престъпността сред ромите е непропорционално висока. Броят на заподозрените на 100 000 души лица от български и ромски произход обикновено се различава драстично, като през 2004 г. тази разлика е била между 2,7 и 4,7 пъти в зависимост от това дали се приема, че общият брой на ромите и около 550 000 или се използва официално приетата цифра 370 000."
Again, not something that can be written of by claiming their higher youth percentage.
Table 2 doesn't state that Bulgarians are more prone to committing violent crimes, but that of the crimes they commit violent crimes form a higher percentage. But even if gypsies are less likely to commit these crimes, due to their much higher number of total crimes, they still can commit those crimes at a higher rate than Bulgarians. As the author shows, their murder rate is much higher than the Bulgarian, so why would types of attacks against persons not also be higher? Also, обир means robbery or burglary. It's not petty crime. And the stealing of agricultural produce is not petty, when you consider that many villager have given up trying to make living from agriculture, as they cannot protect their produce from thefth.
The Deutsche Welle source might be from 1998, but as Bezlov notes, since 1998 the collection of information about ethnicity has declined, but crime levels haven't changed much. So it's useful information, even if it's outdated.
ReplyDeleteSo in conclusion I think I've proven that the crime rate Gypsies is much higher than among Bulgarians, even if one takes various mitigation factors into account (you could argue that "much" is incorrect, but I would say more than 3 times the murder rate is much. And this is the best collected statistic.) I don't I've said anything about incubators, by the way. It's pointless therefore to search for the Bulgarians' feelings in some apriori bias, but to ignore the obvious reasons for this feeling (as well as the crime rate, there is a feeling that Gypsies are privileged, which is perhaps exaggerated, though arguments certainly can be made in favor of this view). I should note that hatred and fear of Gypsies has become common only in recent years; there were practically no such feelings against before 1989, where they were much better integrated and committed far less crimes. I should note that accusations of racism without proof, so broadly applied can be considered xenophobic as well...
You haven't explained why do you disagree with the reporting by novinite. You agree that conditions in Gypsy quarters are horrible yet are angered when this is described by the media. Do you want the media to whitewash the reality of these ghettos or is this some personal issue you have with this news source.
Considering that Kiril Rashkov is known primarily as a Gypsy clan leader with dubious wealth it would be absurd not to mention his ethnicity - which is well known, anyway. And also Western countries often don't report ethnicity, yet everyone in the US for example, seems to think that Black people commit more crimes on average, so the media can't be blamed for this.
And by the way, Novinite specifically mentions that the claims about guns are only by the protesters: "Meanwhile, Roma population across the country awaited attacks, armed with shovels, axes, sticks, and guns at some spots, if protester accounts are to be trusted.", http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=132473. So please read more carefully before citing a source.
By the way, why do you write ethnic Bulgarians in parentheses? You think that they don't exist?
ReplyDeleteInsidebulgaria, I couldn't agree more with you. The protests have been very conveniently misdirected from those who actually bear responsibility for most of the problems plaguing Bulgaria (including the problems Bulgaria has with its Gypsy minority, of course).
ReplyDeletePlease only post in English here. This is an English language site and readers will not be able to understanding postings in Bulgarian.
ReplyDeleteNo one knows how many Roma there are in the country. The official figure is 370,000 however everyone knows that this is not correct. It's based on self classification and many Roma classify themselves as Turks or Bulgarian. So we don't know. Figures are bandied about ranging from 370,000 to 500,000 to 1,000,000. Now when you are calculating statistics, this is hugely important. Depending on what figure you choose the statistics can be grossly distorted by a significant factor. For example using the 1993 data for murder, Roma participation in murders can range from 48 murders per 100,000 Roma to 18 murders per 100,000 (based on 370,000 or 1,000,000 Roma population). Which is right? The answer is nobody knows. And if you use a higher figure for Roma, by definition, "ethic Bulgarian" participation in crime increases accordingly.
The recording of the ethnicity of criminals stopped in 1990, I think. I don's know how it is recorded today. Maybe self-classification or maybe the police just guess? Skin-color charts? As an aside, I had a conversation with a friend the other day. "Do you know that guy who serves in the local café?" he said. "Yeah", I said. "Did you know he was a Roma?" he said. "No", I said. "I never would have guessed", he said. "I mean I know his skin was sort of sallow, but I didn't think he was a Roma". Amazing, isn't it? Maybe there are hundreds of thousands covert Roma who we never knew about?
So with the caveat that we don't know how many Roma there are and we don't have an accurate way of telling what a Roma criminal looks like, let's look at the murder figures! The figures show that in ten years from 1993 to 2003 that Roma participation in murder decreased from 35.8 to 12.5 murders per 100,000 Roma. The corresponding figures for "ethnic Bulgarians" increased from 5.5 to 5.8. What this means is that the number of overall murders have declined (you'd never think it, to listen to people here) and that the ethnic Bulgarians committed proportionately more murders. That's what the figures say. Less Roma participation over the period and more ethnic Bulgarian participation.
Of course during that period there was also a rapid decline in population by about 500,000. I assume most of those that left were professionals, young people and that the murderers stayed at home. It might be one explanation for the increase in ethnic Bulgarian participation. Finally if you use the higher population figure for Roma (say 1,000,000), Roma participation in murders for 2003 would be 6.2 vs 7.2 for ethnic Bulgarians. But that couldn't be right?! Could it? In short, these figures are meaningless. The simple fact is that there are no meaningful and accurate statistics and those that are available (suspect as they are ) paint a very different one than the dominant narrative. But why let pesky facts spoil a good riot?. contd.
As I said earlier, I accept that crimes committed by Roma will be proportionately higher. So you can stop trying to prove the bleeding obvious. This is a simple socio-economic fact. When you ghettoize 7 to 14% of your population, when you marginalise them, when you deny them rudimentary human rights such as a quality education, decent healthcare and access to training and employment, guess what? You will see an increase in crime from this cohort of the population. The commonly held view in Bulgaria (it may not be yours) is that the country is held to ransom by the feckless Roma who have an inherent/genetic disposition towards crime (see Ataka for more details or just spend a few hours talking to people or cruising the web). It's simply a lie. It also divers attention from the real problem. And we all know what the real narrative is. The last 20 years are the story of a failed state. It has failed because of corrupt ineffective government, corrupt judiciary, and mafia thugs. It has not failed because of the Roma. To deal with Roma originated crime, you need to end their racial discrimination, address their appalling living standards and provide their children with decent educational opportunities. Not turn them in to soap. Now if you have other suggestions or ideas let's hear them.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, when I was referring to petty crime I was talking about Джебчийска кражба not обир. I agree, to an extent, with your point about agricultural crime, However to suggest that people have stopped farming because of Roma crime is ridiculous. Agriculture amounts to 6% 0f GDP here and the reasons for its decline have very little to do with the Roma and much more to do with the chronic lack of investment in modern infrastructure and machinery. But again it's more convenient to point the finger elsewhere.
By the way are you going to substantiate your allegations about rape or just withdraw them?
Your figures prove nothing, except you own inherent bias. You use the term Gypsy when it is widely accepted as a pejorative term and it says a lot about you. I prefer not to use the term ethnic Bulgarian at all, despite the antropologcal/sociological niceties. In recents times the term is used divisively i.e. to imply difference and in particular belonging. I consider the Roma to be Bulgarian, plain and simple. Ethnic conflicts in recent years in the Balkans point to the folly of using these distinctions.
I have dealt with Novinite.com on numerous occasions and have nothing to add. You see it your way. I see it mine. We'll have to agree to differ.
In my view, there is a distressing racist undercurrent in Bulgarian society. God help you if you are Roma, black or homosexual. Here the terms "nigger", "pedophile" and "gypsy" are in common use. I have visited and lived here for many years. It is a country I love and the people have always been friendly and welcoming to me. I hope people see me in the same way. But a good friend will always offer criticism where they think it is due. What people choose to do is entirely a matter for them. It's your country. If you see that as xenophobia. Fine. At this stage, I'm happy to let others decide.
Now, with the greatest respect, you can faff around for the rest of week parsing and dissecting meaningless, inaccurate and wholly misleading statistics that don't prove your point. My advice to you is to divert your attention from the pedantic to a real analysis of the causes and solutions to Bulgaria's current undeserved status as the poorest country in Europe.
Ivan/Gmantis, I missed the final point about the quote from Novinite. Only an editor-in-chief would be so concerned about accuracy of sources! When the article was published tensions were at their highest. Novinite.com clearly implied, without corroboration from official sources, that the Roma were armed with guns. It's simply not good enough for you (sorry them!) to wash your (sorry their!) hands and say "if protester accounts are to be trusted." In the article you (sorry they!) associate the Roma with guns with absolutely no evidence, Over 1,000 people read the article. The protestors account should not have been published without corroboration. Shame on you (sorry them!).
ReplyDeleteIt's obviously pointless to have a discussion with someone whose main argument seems to be personal attacks. However, I really can't let your selective reading and selection of facts go unchallenged.
ReplyDeleteI was quoting the Bulgarian text as you seem to have a trouble reading it. For example, you seem to have missed this sentence: "Тук отново изглежда, че регистрирането на етническия произход представлява проблем, тъй като няма други очевидни причини броят на извършителите на убийства от български произход да нараства, а този на ромите да е намалял трикратно." "Again it seems here that the registration of ethnicity is a problem, as there are no other obvious reasons for the number of murder suspects of Bulgarian origin to increase, while those of the Romani to decrease three times." Which basically means that your analysis is merely waffling, because any decrease in Gypsy crime is most likely due to the decrease in the registration of ethnic origin. And as I said above, I agree that the number of crimes committed by Gypsies must be taken into the proper context, but even then the figures are much higher, probably still between two and three times. And if there are many Gypsies who can pass for Bulgarians, then the collection of data on ethnicity would be even more inaccurate and their crime rate even higher.
Here is a source about rapes: http://www.capital.bg/blogove/pravo/2007/03/26/322284_romite_i_prestupnostta_policeiska_statistika_i/ "При тези инциденти става дума за колективно насилие, за разлика от по-обичайните случаи на изнасилвания и обири, при които извършителите също твърде често са лица от ромски произход." "In these incidents there is a case of collective violence, unlike the more usual cases of raper and robberies, where the perpetrators also are too often persons of Roma ancestry" And another source that can hardly be accused of predjudice against Gypsies: http://www.fes.bg/files/custom/calendar/2007/03/Romite_v_Bulgaria_Doklad.pdf (page 16). That source notes that in fact minor thefts which you seem to think are the main problem are generally not even registered by the police, which probably skews the statistics in the Gypsy's favor.
I did not say that the Gypsies are responsible for the decline of agriculture, please try to quote accurately.
If you accept that the Gypsy crime rate is higher, why don't you accept that this will cause anger against the Gypsies without need to resort to theories about bias? Your picture about the Bulgarians' feelings against the Gypsies is inaccurate, the feeling is that the Gypsies have become used to relying on assistance by the state and on top of that commit too many crimes. A picture that is in many ways unfair, but unfortunately has a base of truth in it. And it's an opinion that has grown parallel with the growth of Gypsy crime.
What's the point of the absurd sentence: "Your figures don't prove anything" when you actually agree with my assertion? Is this how you deal with uncomfortable facts - by ignoring them? Your dismissal of the statistics seems especially ridiculous when you asked for them and they come from a pro-Gypsy source
I don't use the word Roma not out of prejudice. First, I don't see why we should century long usage simply because part of group doesn't like it (not all Gypsies actually think that the word is pejorative). This seems to be PC as its worst - trying to change the thinking about something by changing the way it is named. I wonder if perhaps the coincidental similarity of this word with Rome has not been a factor in its promotion. Also, the word is implicitly racist, as it implies that non-Gypsies are not human.
contd
The Gypsies are Bulgarian citizens but to regard them as Bulgarians in an ethnic sense is completely ridiculous. As much as you might not like it, ethnic self-identification exists and that's why the term ethnic Bulgarians exist.
ReplyDeleteThis is not the topic for your issues with Novinite, though it's almost funny how you ignore the refutation of your claims about it.
Nice to see that you see your criticism as good meaning, but to use your analogy, a good friend would try to understand why his friends think like that, instead of using his preconceived views to brand them with perhaps unwarranted accusations.
I don't use the word Roma out of prejudice. First, I don't see why we should century long usage simply because part of group doesn't like it (not all Gypsies actually think that the word is pejorative). This seems to be PC as its worst - trying to change the thinking about something by changing the way it is named. I wonder if perhaps the coincidental similarity of this word with Rome has not been a factor in its promotion. Also, the word is implicitly racist, as it implies that non-Gypsies are not human.
The Gypsies are Bulgarian citizens but to regard them as Bulgarians in an ethnic sense is completely ridiculous. As much as you might not like it, ethnic self-identification exists and that's why the term ethnic Bulgarians exist.
This is not the topic for your issues with Novinite, though it's almost funny how you ignore the refutation of your claims about it.
Nice to see that you see your criticism as good meaning, but to use your analogy, a good friend would try to understand why his friends think like that, instead of using his preconceived views to brand them with perhaps unwarranted accusations.
contd
As a conclusion, I agree with you about the reasons of the terrible situations of the Gypsies as well as the country as a whole and hardly anyone would claim that the Gypsies are responsible for the problems of this country. Your solutions are good, though I think more focus is required on providing employment and education (which last one even the ones most friendly to Gypsies do not seem to think is much of a priority for them) and less on welfare, which seems to be counterproductive.
Sorry for my comment about you being funny; I didn't see your last comment. Though that comment is funny in itself, what with your assertion that I'm Ivan Dikov. Also, you might not know it but a news source that chooses to ignore a side in a conflict is committing censorship and favoring the other side. That's quite different from presenting information without sources as there are clearly sources here.
ReplyDeleteIvan/GMantis
ReplyDeleteJust a few closing points.
When you started this Roma crime odyssey you said (and I quote!) "they commit the majority of thefts, burglaries and assaults". Even using your Ministry for Corruption (sorry Interior) discredited figures that allegation is shown to be a lie. Care to comment? Better not. Don't dig any more holes.
When someone or some community asks you to cease referring to them in a particular way (nigger, gypsy, pedophile) it's polite and respectful to comply. It's nothing to do with PC. It's just plain old good manners. And why would you not oblige?
Ethnic distinction has served the region well (particularly in a climate such as this). We're not talking about cultural identification here. We are talking about violence, about knives, axes and sticks. Oh yes and guns as well! You know. Serious life threatening things.
The Roma view has been completely ignored in recent days. Has it even been canvassed? You might want to do a statistical analysis on the amount of positive news stories about the Roma in the last month. I agree with you that that amounts to censorship. Nothing new there then.
People have left agriculture because there is no money in it. Not because of Roma theft. Your intimation to the contrary is ridiculous and once again demonstrates your bias. Here is what you said "And the stealing of agricultural produce is not petty, when you consider that many villager have given up trying to make living from agriculture, as they cannot protect their produce from thefth."
And, as a matter of interest, why is it necessary to refer to ethnicity when reporting crime? What purpose does it serve? It's good you make a comparison with the African American community. I think the comparison is very apt. Both groups were subject to racial discrimination. It still endures in the US, 50 years after the civil rights movement. Isn't it time you started a similar movement in Bulgaria?
Novinite fiddles (with figures) while the Roma burn. Don't take that literally, Ivan/GMantis, It's a metaphor.